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Dec 20, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38
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#701 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: CULT
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Quote:
im just waiting to see how long before they will click onto your solution. what crazy is that some of the people here posted in that thread..its like they forgot everything. |
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Dec 20, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39
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#702 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2006
Profession: R/W
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Quote:
Again, you dont need max pve skills. So you dont need to grind for them. But to get them at full power you do need to grind for them. Someone who does grind has an advantage over someone who doesnt. Therefore to remain at the same level as everyone else you need to grind. As for the GWEN rep titles, ive completed the game and done 80% of the side quests (still have some vanguard ones to finish), my highest rank is 6. And thats with 2 books worth of faction donated towards it. My lowest is 3. So yeah im still going to have to grind to get it up even to the point of accessing everything, nevermind being on an equal footing. Lets not forget thats on one char. There is no way in hell im going to get all of them maxed on one char, let alone all of my chars. Not only is the time required multiplied for each char but the ammount of grind is as well. Even though the player, the same player behind all their chars, has already done the same ammount of grind as someone with 1 char. They might not even have a single title maxed. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22
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#703 | |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2006
Profession: E/
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Quote:
Tell me what pve only skills you use on a regular basis and when and how, or where you would use them and whether you could do same thing using a regular skill! Two things which are constantly stated about this game.... 1) It about skill and nothing else. 2) It doesnt matter about your level or whether your "better" then the next guy. Im pretty sure you yourself at some point said that, and you (or others) used the "skill" statement as a reason why titles + pve only skills are bad. But surely if a player is skilled and this game isnt about trying to be better then the next guy, you shouldnt need to max your pve only skills to achieve a feeling of "equality"? If you dont need to be lvl20 to be skilled ingame, then why do you need pve only skills maxed to be skilled? You seem to be suggesting you're not skilled or your "less skilled" then the person next to you if theirs are more powerfull then yours! For a player to be disadvantaged ingame, they have to be missing an item or skill or rank which they cant proceed ingame without. You tell me one instance ingame where you cant proceed unless you are using a pve only skill or have it at a certain strength? Just one! If you can do that, then I will accept a person can be disadvantaged if they dont have a pve only skill or dont have it at max levels. If not then please shut up about being disadvantaaged. You are perfectly capable of achieveing exactly the same results with a normal or elite skill, as you are using a pve only skill. There is nothing that a pve only skill can do that a normal/elite skill cant, or similar! An extra few seconds of healing or an extra bit of damage against destroyers or abaddons minions isnt going to make you better then another player, or are you suggesting it does? Because if you are, then you can throw the statements about this game being "skill based" out the window. Because by your reasoning this game is about equipment and gear and armor.... and not about skill! Last edited by freekedoutfish; Dec 21, 2007 at 12:37 AM // 00:37.. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06
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#704 | ||||||
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2006
Profession: R/W
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Quote:
The game advertised skill>time. Thats one of the main reasons I purchased it. I can do just as well as someone who puts in more time than me. Its not as if im the only person who doesnt like time>skill. A lot of online role playing games use it, GW was a fresh break from that. It got a lot of players because of that. The same goes for other games that use skill>time. You arent penalized for not spending time on something you dont want to do, or dont have the time to do. If this was a non issue these games wouldnt exist and advertise it right? GW for example advertised that fact everywhere to get people to buy it. On the box, on the site, in interviews etc. Why would they do that if no one cared? Quote:
Of course you could. But that doesnt mean there isnt a disadvantage to not using the max damage weapon. Quote:
You miss the point of skill>time, if you can get an advantage through time or grinding you cant say its countered by the other player being more skillful. Thats not how it works. The idea is everyone is on an equal footing, the only difference is the player. Quote:
Skill is the measure of the player. Any ingame effects arent factored into skill. If you take an old and a new player, switch their chars. There should be no difference. Because the skill stays with the player and the char doesnt gain any advantage due to time spent. Quote:
Its not only if you cant do something. If you again take 2 player of equal skill, give one max armour, give the other 40AL. Its still possible to complete the game with 40AL. So by your reasoning he isnt at a disadvantage. But of course he is. He has less AL. Thats a disadvantage, just because its still possible doesnt change that fact. It goes with pve skills as well. You dont need them, the game can be completed without them. But not having them maxed is a disadvantage when compared to someone who has them maxed. Quote:
Thats why a lot of people dont like the skills linked to titles. Because it broke skill>time. You are now at an advantage if you max the titles when compared to someone else. So time spent on titles gives you an advantage. Skill is no longer the single critical factor. The advantages dont have to be game breaking. Its like giving someone a 10 second head start in a race. You can still beat them if you are a lot better. But take players of equal skill and give one an advantage. Now the one with the advantage wins. It can even be the case when the player with the advantage is slightly worse then the other player. Last edited by Isileth; Dec 21, 2007 at 01:12 AM // 01:12.. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09
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#705 |
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Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Dec 2007
Profession: W/
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Ok that just makes no sense...A-net wants everyone to be equal, they have alot of ppl that work for them to insure it is balanced. So your argument of ppl soud be better than you dosnt work. Balance has been the theme since they started nerfing skills so that there wasnt an unfair advantage over the next guy...remember how easy farming used to be with a 55 or a SS...But if you wern't skilled enough to do it yourself then those ppl that could had an unfair advantage, so they took it away, along with alot of other skills. I dont think that LB/SS or the GW:EN Reputation should be account wide but there are alot of titles that should be. I could start a new char and have a wisdom title in an hour(after a run and about 100k but I could do it). So I would have to say that any title based on consumibles should be account wide...
Like: Sweet Tooth (cakes and stuff) Drunkard (drinks and time) Wisdom (ID Kits and money ;-) ) Lucky/Unlucky (Tickets and going for coffee) /Signed for the consumible title track |
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Dec 21, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26
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#706 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Boston Ma.
Guild: Is That Your Build[HaHa]
Profession: P/W
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/singed x8
Repeating some of these titles for other characters is redundant, and i think 99.8% of us wont attempt these with other characters. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55
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#707 | |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2006
Profession: E/
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Quote:
Name me on instance where you actuallly use a pve only skill on a regular basis, where a normal or elite skill wouldnt cut it? You cant compare using a non-max weapon to using a non-maxed pve skill, because you have a HUGE selection of other normal and elite skills to use instead which are just as effective. And max weapons drop everywhere, are very easily crafted or bought. What about those players who don't own GWEN or NF or Factions and have no access to pve only skills? Would you not choose them for your PUG because they dont have a pve only skill you wish them to use because they would disadvantage the team! How can you talk about skill being important and yet your arguing its ok to judge a player by their rank in a title, and its ok to choose the higher ranked player over the lower one. Rank in a title means nothing and it doesnt mean your more skilled then someone else. You seem to be under the impression a player with a maxed pve only skill is going to automatically make them better then someone without! Yet then you say "no you dont need pve only skills". Make your mind up as to what your position is here! Stop trying to put some over due importance on pve only skills, which doesnt exist just to justify your want for GWEN, LB and SS titles to be account based. There is nothing overly important or special about pve only skills. They add nothing to the game except make it easier and you yourself have said you dont like the game being easy. Again I ask, when do you use pve only skills on a regular basis? which mission, quest, dungeon or elite zone do you use them in and does it make a staggering difference if they are not maxed? |
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Dec 21, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19
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#708 | |||||||
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2006
Profession: R/W
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Quote:
But that doesnt mean suddenly everything is fine and peachy. Because there is still an advantage for those who grind them out over those who dont. Quote:
And no, other skills arent as effective (not in all cases anyway). Some PvE skills do things no other skills comes close to replicating. PvE skills are often more effective than other skills. Therefore not having them is a disadvantage. Quote:
Quote:
Im saying someone with a higher rank pve skills is more effective. They have an advantage. Im not saying it indicates skill. Thats the problem. Skill should be the defining critical factor, not time. Quote:
You can only base skill>time when both players are on an equal footing. Quote:
You do not need them. You do not need anything. The game can be completed with non max weapons, non max armour, non max skills, less than 8 skills etc etc. However you are at a disadvantage if you play that way compared to someone who doesnt. Thats the problem. A player who grinds out titles has an advantage over someone who doesnt. Quote:
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Dec 21, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28
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#709 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Nov 2007
Profession: W/Mo
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Quote:
But, yes, when a Lightbringer rank of 3 makes you more powerful and effective than a Lightbringer rank of 1, that is a game mechanic that forces players to grind for rep in order to improve their effectiveness. A decent Lightbringer rep in Nightfall is as necessary, in practical terms, as Luxon/Kurzik reps are in Factions, but just handled in an inferior way. EotN improved on the Nightfall rep system by making it easier to get area-wide bounties, but Factions handled rep the best. With most in-game mechanics, such as having to buy better-grade armor, etc., the mechanic works OK and is not boring. Grinding for rep, however, is boring. The rep you had to gain in Factions for Luxon/Kurzick was handled better, imo, because you could obtain it easily by completing quests, which are fun to do, and that rep is also shared by other characters on that account. It was a much better system for rep. As for the other titles (Explorer, etc.), I don't much care about them. I only find it frustrating having to re-grind (i.e., on multiple characters) for titles/ranks that are necessary in order to play the game effectively. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34
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#710 | ||
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2006
Profession: E/
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Quote:
And again its a choice to use those skills! If you dont use pve only skills you can still do the exact same stuff . You are crippled in any way, shape or form if you dont use pve only skills. Yes pve only skills may make killing this creature or that boss easier... but so what? are you really that vain you need to be able to kill that same boss as easily ass the other guy? There is nothing ingame which requirs pve only skills to complete! Thats my entire point. So what if another player can do that same thing a little bit easier, when you can still do it using normal skills. If you told me one instance where you could not proceed ingame without the use of pve only game, I would completely sign this thread. But you cant! There are none! This is almost as bad as when people were saying they couldnt do elite zones like FOW and UW without the use of maxed pve only skills. You have to ask "how did they manage before PVE only skills existed then?" because they did! We managed longed before pve only skills were added and I have hardly ever used them and I have quite a few at highish levels. Quote:
Does that make it acceptable? no and it shouldnt be an issue. Players only feel forced into increaseing ranks to satisfy this feeling of "i wont get into a pug unless im higher rank, arghh". A feeling which isnt caused by Anet, its caused by eliteist players who love themselves. Stop blaming Anet because they didnt cause this attitude. Players like yourself and others did by puttng far too much enforcis on pve only skills and ranks and making them seem more important then they are. Last edited by freekedoutfish; Dec 21, 2007 at 05:41 PM // 17:41.. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45
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#711 | ||||
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2006
Profession: R/W
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Quote:
You do not need them That doesnt change the fact there is an advantage for having them. Thats the point. Quote:
But there is a disadvantage to the player without them compared to the player with them. Time has given them an advantage. Therefore skill>time has been broken. Quote:
If it wasnt such an issue would people support it so much? Would games use it as one of the main features they advertise? Its a core priniciple of the game (or was in this case), removing it has annoyed a lot of players who came for the skill>time. Quote:
That is not the point. You do not need them. That doesnt change the fact that skill>time has been broken and there is now an advantage to the player who grinds the titles. That is the point. That is the problem. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12
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#712 | |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2006
Profession: E/
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Quote:
Do you actually use them? ever? Answer me! The same question to everyone else who says they want pve only skills maxed out instantly. Do you ever use them? Last edited by freekedoutfish; Dec 21, 2007 at 06:14 PM // 18:14.. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16
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#713 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2006
Profession: A/N
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You don't even need 8 skills most of the time. Let's make skillbar grind-based ;d
Quote:
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Dec 21, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29
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#714 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oregon, USA.
Guild: Zero Mercy [zm]
Profession: W/
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Quote:
So, yes, I do use them. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33
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#715 | |
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Site Contributor
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Usa
Guild: TKC
Profession: N/
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Quote:
The game is skill over time. If you were only lb1 and killing Abbadon you would need more skill. So your argument is BUNK. time = easier= less skill. Now to address the question. The COMMUNITY not the GAME makes this choice. If the community finds you less worthy because you are a lower level/rank than what they want to play with, then that is the communities fault not the game. not the titles. not the rank emote. This has been ingrained into the community by (as an example) tanking assassins, wammos with frenzy+heal sig. We as a community have had it up to our eyeballs with "I g0+z [email protected] L33+ 5k!llz, Cause 5k!llz > +1m3". which = you wasted my time. This entire thread needs shut down. This is the ultimate flogging of the deadest horse. It is NOT gonna change. You can get all the guru people behind this and it will change NOTHING. L2P = learn to play= time. The game does not require it, but to play with the big kids, we do. Last edited by zamial; Dec 21, 2007 at 06:47 PM // 18:47.. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29
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#716 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2006
Profession: R/W
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Quote:
You dont need to do the last 8 missions of each campaign. But if they got locked until you grinded 10,000 points in some title on each char you can see why there would be problems. If max dmg weapons only dropped after you killed the same foe 500 times. If you only had 7 skills till you maxed out title X. Its not about how much it effects the game, rather that it does effect the game. |
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Dec 21, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05
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#717 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2006
Profession: A/N
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Quote:
Yet it did. For worse. How about change back for the better? |
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Dec 21, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38
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#718 | |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2006
Profession: E/
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Quote:
Earning rank 1 sunspear effects the game? lol! Earning rank 5 in GWEN effects the game? lol! Those are not "locked" as you put it. Those are stupidly easy amounts to earn to then proceed. The last two are even more laughable because those are done by just playing the quests and missions and dungeons! This has nothing to do with wanting titles account based for "the better of the game", its about you and others wanting pve only skills maxed out the instant you get them. Its about wanting instant access to GWEN armor and weapons. Again I say.... there is nothing important about pve only skills. Yes they make your life a TINY bit easier by letting you more damage or heal more or degen longer, etc etc etc. But if you want them, then use them. You dont need them maxed out! If you want them maxed out and dont want to earn the title each time.... use one of the countless other skills instead. You are not at any disadvantage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!! Get this into your head! For you to say "I am disadvantaged when playing the game" you would have to be unable to be unable to earn the same rank as the guy next to you. Your are not unable to do anything in this game! If player A can do it, then you can do it! http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disadvantaged "Deprived of some of the basic necessities or advantages of life, such as adequate housing, medical care, or educational facilities. " You have the basic necessities in the form of countless skills, max armor and max weapons just as Player A does! PVE only skills are not a basic necessity because you DONT need them to proceed ingame. I know fine well your going to argue a PVE only skill is a "advantage of life" but their not. You know why? Because your have tha facilities at hand to gain that advantage if you put the work in and increase your rank. Anet is not making it hard to increase those rank, its actually VERY, VERY easy! Or at the least, you are just as capable of increasing ranks as the guy next to you. For you to argue your disadvantaged you have to prove your are incapable of increasing title ranks! Are you? Is it impossible for you to put the same time and effort into increasing title ranks as the guy next to you? No your not!!! You might work longer hours and have less time to play, but that doesnt mean you can't earn the same rank. It would just take longer to do. But your still capable of doing it. You are NOT disadvantaged to the person next to you who has a more powerfull PVE only skill, because your are just as capable of increasing your title rank as they were! Understand that! Even if you have 8 players and you want your pve only skills maxed out on them all; that makes NO difference. You are not being stopped from increasing ranks on all your characters by Anet at all. If Player A has rank 10 luxon and you have rank 1 luxon, why cant you increase yourself to rank 10? Whats stopping you? whats the disadvantage your face with to stop you doing that? The disadvantage ISNT in whether player A has a rank above you. The disadvantage is in whether you are capable of gaining the same rank as them using the same methods. And NOTHING ingame is stopping you from doing that. I've played the same quests and dungeons and locations as you have. I have rank 8-9 on most GWEN titles, I have rank 4 kurzack, I have max rank SS and LB. I dont play endless hours every night and it took me a while to get those. Are you incapable of putting that same time and effort in? No your not! You could do that just as I did. So you are NOT disadvantaged at all. A disadvantaged person is someone in a wheelchair who cant access a building because it only has stairs. A disadvantaged person is someone who cant read and needs to read the train timetable to get home. A disadvantaged person is someone who doesnt have the same facilities as the guy next to them, or the ability to access those facilities or earn the same stuff as them. Unless you tell me that you personally have a physical or mental disability which effects your ability to earn title ranks ingame, then you are NOT disadvantaged. Even if you have more characters then Player A, means nothing. You chose to create more then one character and Anet didnt force you! Thats like someone with 2 kids arguing they should get more child support then someone with 1 child because their disadvantaged. Even though their just as capable of going out and earnin a wage. And as to whether PVE only skills + titles effects the game is an opinion, and not a proven fact. Its a fact how ever that you are NOT disadvantaged because you can earn the same ranks as player A because you have access to the same facilities as they do. Player A also has the ability to create more then one character, but that is purely choice. If they did create more characters, it doesnt diminish their access to facilities to increase those same ranks. Last edited by freekedoutfish; Dec 21, 2007 at 08:51 PM // 20:51.. |
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Dec 22, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30
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#719 |
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Ancient Windbreaker
 
Join Date: May 2005
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It's a game people. If you don't want to do it, no one is forcing you. Just click on that <X> in the top right corner. Grind ended.
and, welcome to the Freakedoutfish vs. Isileth thread. Last edited by quickmonty; Dec 22, 2007 at 02:06 PM // 14:06.. |
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Dec 22, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15
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#720 | ||||||||||
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2006
Profession: R/W
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Quote:
It has an effect on the game. Quote:
I could not care less about looking prettier or cooler or whatever reason people want them for. If others do, great for them. Im not going to stop them. But im here for the gameplay not some dress up game. Quote:
Quote:
You can farm until you get the same weapon as someone else right? So that means its all ok then. There is a reason some people dont like that system. Perhaps you dont find it a problem, im not suggesting you have to. But one of the main reasons I joined GW was because it didnt use this system. Infact it used skill>time as one of its features they splashed about on the box, the site and interviews. So forgive me for not liking the change. Quote:
Both run the exact same speed under normal conditions. However the first man is running with a bag of sand on his back. Is that man not at a disadvantage? Disadvantage does not just mean lacking the basic necessities. Its all well and good picking out a single deffenition from a page full of them. But only when you realise it has more than one meaning. Hell a person with a broken wrist is "disadvantaged". A golfer playing with a handicap is "disadvantaged". Thats the meaning being used here. Quote:
PvE skills are an advantage. Having them is an advantage. Having to spend x time maxing them is not skill>time. Its Time>skill. A person who has spent time on them has an advantage. Quote:
What you just described is Time>skill. Thats exactly why im against all this sort of stuff. Because I support Skill>time. Really I cant sum it up much better than that. They are 2 completely opposite systems, I support one. I dislike the other. So perhaps we each prefer a different system? I dont know. But if thats so I think we are reaching a dead end on this discussion. If you support it for another reason however, please do tell. [quote=freekedoutfish[ A disadvantaged person is someone in a wheelchair who cant access a building because it only has stairs. A disadvantaged person is someone who cant read and needs to read the train timetable to get home. A disadvantaged person is someone who doesnt have the same facilities as the guy next to them, or the ability to access those facilities or earn the same stuff as them. Unless you tell me that you personally have a physical or mental disability which effects your ability to earn title ranks ingame, then you are NOT disadvantaged. [/quote] Again you are picking out defenitions of disadvantaged. You need to look at it in the context we are using. Thats a game and the debate of skill>time. In this disadvantaged is when another player gets an advantage due to time spent not player skill. Thats the definition we are using. Quote:
Because you do get more child support the more children you have.... Quote:
Lets work through it shall we? (ill assume the skill does damage for ease here) Does having a max pve skill do more dmg than a non maxed version of the skill? Yes Does doing more damage to something means it takes more damage? Yes Does taking more damage mean you have less health? Yes Does heaving less health mean you die quicker? Yes Does killing your enemies quicker effect the game? Yes As for being able to do the same thing with a normal skill or non maxed pve skill. Tell me how without R10 Asura you can summon a lvl 20 Ruby Djinn that lasts for 60 seconds. Its not possible. (using only 1 skill anyways) Tell me how a non R10 Great Dwarf Weapon does +20 damage with a 40% chance to knockdown. Again, not possible. (with 1 skill) ***edit*** Quote:
Check the last few pages and you will see it several times. Last edited by Isileth; Dec 22, 2007 at 12:18 PM // 12:18.. |
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